Flashing ECU's how do they work?

"Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom" (jeremyhampson) 05/07/2014 at 15:37 • Filed to: ECU flash

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Question after the jump

This is an ECU flasher from FSWerks for my !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

So, I was talking to my cousin about turbos, and ECU flashing, the different stages and things of that nature. Namely because I don't know shit about any of that, and he mentioned his Golf is stage 1, and explained to me that he had his ECU flashed. So my question is, what exactly (I mean as detailed as you can get) goes into flashing an ECU? I have no idea what goes on, do you just plug in, and upload a new map? Or is it like flashing a BIOS on a computer? And what's the best way to do it? Get a flasher like the one I posted up there, or have someone do it?

AM3R > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/07/2014 at 15:40

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My basic understanding: cars ecu's leave the factory in their most efficient setting. This usually isn't their highest performing setting so when you flash your ecu you are changing the setting of it. I'd go more into detail but I'm on mobile.

HammerheadFistpunch > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/07/2014 at 15:45

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To answer your question: yes. the "maps" are just a table of data so when you re-flash you are putting a whole new data set in there. You typically buy a unit like the cobb, or if your ecu is sealed it will need to be shipped off or you can get a pickyback controller that is sperate and hijacks the output signals from the stock ECU and resend on the fly with new ones.

Nibbles > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/07/2014 at 15:48

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You show the computer your tits and it gets a chubby, thus improving its performance

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > AM3R 05/07/2014 at 16:04

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cars ecu's typically leave the factory in their safest setting, not necessarily the most efficient. Auto manufacturers have to protect against idiots that forget about maintenance, like oil changes, so the cars usually run a little richer than they need to, which is a safer state tune for the car to be in.

When getting a tune you'll typically see an increase in MPG, if you can avoid a lead foot, because by leaning out the car you get more performance, but this also uses less fuel... At lower throttle inputs.

That's my understanding of tunes through my research for getting my SHO tuned.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/07/2014 at 16:08

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You can typically get what's called a canned tune, if you get that from a reputable tuner you will typically be very close to what they can do with a custom dyno tune.

When you get into more heavily modified cars or if you are willing to do anything to gain a mph or a fraction of a second in the 1/4 mile it pays off to dyno tune.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > HammerheadFistpunch 05/07/2014 at 16:09

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Holy hell that got confusing fast. So some manufacturers actually seal their ECU's?

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > Nibbles 05/07/2014 at 16:09

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But I don't have tits, just a penis.

HammerheadFistpunch > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/07/2014 at 16:11

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VW group is known for totally sealed ECU's They dont want you in there playing with stuff.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > Nibbles 05/07/2014 at 16:11

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Best explanation of ECU flashing ever. So to flash my STI... this won't end well, will it? So to flash my STI I would need to borrow a lovely lady. How do you flash a chick car, show it your dick and it gets moist? Then everything shorts out and nothing works properly ever again?

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 05/07/2014 at 16:11

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What would be the drawbacks to getting it tuned to running it leaner, as in wearing of the engine? Anything I should really pay attention to more then usual?

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 05/07/2014 at 16:13

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Well I'm not wanting to get every single hp out of out, yet at least, just something to start out, and then maybe improve upon it later on. So what exactly is a canned tune?

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > HammerheadFistpunch 05/07/2014 at 16:14

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Ah, alright. I haven't messed with the ECU yet, but seeing how the Fiesta is set up (the ST anyways), Ford anticipated for these cars to be bought by torque loving idiots and enthusiasts, so I don't expect a sealed ECU, but I've been surprised more then once.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/07/2014 at 16:20

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Typically a person that's into modifying/tuning will be the more maintenance-conscious type. Canned tunes from someone like Cobb or Livernois are very reputable and usually have proven reliability records, so there shouldn't be much to worry about. Of course with any power increase there is a trade-in as far as longevity. But I don't think it's anything very significant or there wouldn't be hundreds, probably thousands, of people tuning their cars. How hard you drive it is of course the other factor in longevity.

At the end of the day I don't see many drawbacks to tuning your car. You can expect both better MPG's and increased performance. Both of those are particularly true for almost any car with a turbo.

Another thing that wasn't mentioned here is that tuners have the capability to firm up shifts and to eliminate torque management. Ford, probably other mfg's too, likes to taper off torque before a shift point. Playing with how/when the car shifts and playing with the torque management can also make the car feel significantly faster.

Nibbles > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/07/2014 at 16:22

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Get yr girlfriend to do it

Nibbles > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 05/07/2014 at 16:23

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No but if you flash a WRX you gotta be careful or you could end up with an STI

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/07/2014 at 16:25

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In the case of Livernois (someone that also tunes Fiesta's) they buy a car with the same engine (likely a 1.6 Fiesta and/or Fusion) and dyno tune it in house, making a sort of one size fits all tune and these tunes are usually very close to where they'll end up if they were to dyno tune your car. The advantage of the dyno is that every car is just a little different, so what works 100% perfectly on their car will be 98-99% ideal on your car (just number for arguments sake). I imagine Cobb's practices are much the same, but since they don't do SHO's (yet) I don't know much about them.

They will also have various tunes that factor in things like CAI, down-pipes, meth injection, colder t-stat, exhaust, etc. etc. When you buy a canned tune they have you specify which mods you have so they can tailor the tune to your needs.

Especially if you are starting out modding, this is the route you should go. Tuners that I've read about will all update your tune for free if you add any mods, just send them an email/call them and they'll email you a new tune to load that adjusts for your new mods. That way your car can take FULL advantage of its new parts.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > Nibbles 05/07/2014 at 16:47

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Since I already have an STI, will antibiotics give MOAR powerz?

Nibbles > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 05/07/2014 at 16:48

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I have no idea but, since you already have an STI, you should probably inform your girlfriend of such

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > Nibbles 05/07/2014 at 16:51

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caveat emptor is my motto.

Saracen > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/07/2014 at 17:04

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If you want a technical description, your car's ECU is a type of non-volatile flash memory, called an EPROM (erasable programmable read only memory)....so yes, as you described, re-flashing it is typically similar to re-flashing your BIOS.

However, there are varying architectures used for ECU's, so some more open architectures allow you to reflash the ECU entirely through the OBDII port, and some require you to remove the ECU entirely from the car and a place a probe on the board to access the boot loader.

nafsucof > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/07/2014 at 17:06

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The new performance tune comes on the flasher. You just connectit to your cars obd2 port and it pulls out your stock tune to save it for returning to stock and uploads the new performance tune. Takes less than 10 minutes.

webmonkees > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/07/2014 at 17:30

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It depends on whether you want to interact further with the stuff and get feedback., change things. I guess people tweak their settings a bit more than where I just got a chip with a different map, and lived with the improvements.

There are other ways of programming that ECU, some with PC interfaces, some with status outputs via bluetooth that you can use iPhones and Androids with. As far as plug-and-play (The Cobb) , it mucks with the ECU, and has built-in status screens and meant as an additional set of monitoring for your computer.

I suppose a shop isn't going to charge much less and you get an extra set of gauges to velcro onto the dash. And you can always zap it back to stock if necessary. A 'flash service' would require a second visit to do that. So there's that.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 05/07/2014 at 18:46

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Hmm, alright, something definitely to think about.

It's a six speed, so, maybe messing around with torque management, and a short throw would go a long way perhaps?

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 05/07/2014 at 18:50

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Oh wow that is awesome, I think this would be the best bet for me then, a canned tune, and thanks for giving me another name of a tuner for Fiesta's, the aftermarket for these cars isn't too big yet, the Focus gets all the attention.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > Saracen 05/07/2014 at 18:53

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Hmm, alright, and just out of curiosity, would it be possible as well to get the stock ECU map, or be able to back in up, in case something goes wrong, or you want to revert back to it?

If you have to remove the ECU, would that be a sign the OEM didn't want you messing with it, and thus be harder to work with it?

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > nafsucof 05/07/2014 at 18:53

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Wow, simple as that?

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > webmonkees 05/07/2014 at 18:56

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Why did you go with a chip?

And for right now, I'm just trying my hand at tuning a bit, seeing if it's something I want to do in the long run with modifying, or just go straight with parts. What's the worst you've seen with someone screwing up a tune?

Saracen > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/07/2014 at 19:01

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If you want to revert to the OEM flash that is easy to do. an OEM dealer could do it or typically your software vendor could do it as well.

Really, no OEM *wants* you messing with the ECU, and some will make life more difficult for tuners to tune it...however, that also means more effort or specialized (i.e. expensive) equipment for OEM dealers to do any diagnostic or repair work. I also think many OEM's realize that it's inevitable their cars will get tuned whether they take attempts to thwart tuning or not and just accept it...they can always void the warranty if they desire on a flashed car.

AM3R > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 05/07/2014 at 19:08

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yup, hit the nail right in the head. Random connection to you having a SHO, I pass this awesome dark green, almost British racing green SHO everyday on my commute home. Looks awesome with it's gloss black wheels.

webmonkees > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/07/2014 at 19:48

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I'm a bad example of this stuff, as my MK2 VW is 1990 and one of the first digital management systems. Basically someone copied the Euro chip and made it available. It was/is an unusual case, because it does run different code, just a eeprom, and the guy usually sells them for $30 on ebay forever, VWvortex folks trust it.

The reason it's a chip.. well, I don't think the ECUs are flash-capable, and a chip is a quick swap. Have the old chip if I need it but probably not. Done it twice now to two cars with similar results.

Basically it tweaks a few cycles, and even turns off the fuel pump on deceleration; end result; about +10mpg and a few perceptual HP due to things running a bit different.

So I'm pretty much fixed with this. I can't hook up an OBDII I'm not even sure if it's OBD 1. I reset the computer by unplugging a coolant sensor and revving to 3500 rpm 3 times and then turn it off, reattach sensor. Very basic.

Something like that Cobb will give you some additional information as to how your car is running. Geek indulgence, perhaps.

Past that I'm a blind guy directing traffic, I'm still basically stock other than a shift weight. Mechanic was like 'what's this fancy shit?'

nafsucof > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/07/2014 at 19:49

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yep most people leave their AP three plugged in so they can do real-time data logging and see several different user selected gauges. It's a very clever device. Best of all you can return the car to stock to bring in for service.

wiffleballtony > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/07/2014 at 23:35

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I got a canned tune formy Mustang. Filled out an online form, they emailed me the files, which I uploaded to my ODBII tuner. Downloaded to the car and thats it. I noticed a huge difference.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > wiffleballtony 05/08/2014 at 08:19

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Wow that is amazingly simple, where did you get the tune files from?

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > nafsucof 05/08/2014 at 08:20

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Would they be able to tell that you have been swapping maps? Would the ECU report something like that?

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > webmonkees 05/08/2014 at 08:22

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Okay, makes sense, and your story does help me out quite a bit, because I have an 86 944 that I would like to mess around with at some point too, and if I wanted to tune it I would have to get a chip.

And I do love me some geek indulgence, even though it wouldn't really matter, I do like seeing everything working and having some readouts on stuff.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > Saracen 05/08/2014 at 08:25

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Okay, and from what other people have been saying is that this device I'm looking it actually stores the original ECU map, so I can revert back to it, that is a nice feature.

I appreciate the info, my biggest concern would be voiding the warranty, I work on my own cars but if the repair is free I'm not going to argue with that.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/08/2014 at 08:29

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Hmm, I hadn't thought about how tunes affect a manual, maybe they don't at all. That's something you'll have to look into.

I'm on ecoboostperformanceforum.com it's a good spot to learn about ecoboost. Not sure how many Fiesta owners are one there, but might be worth checking out for you.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/08/2014 at 08:33

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Oh got ya. I'm sure the Fiesta market will catch up. For one you've got Cobb working on your platform, they haven't done anything for the SHO yet. Not sure if they will, there have been rumors.

I think another tuner would be unleashed performance. They take a different approach to canned tunes however. I don't believe they actually own the cars, they send you a tune that gets close and then they have you data log it and they make adjustments based on the logs you send them. Their tunes are cheaper, but they are also a lengthier process to get them dialed in. I have however heard good things about their tunes.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > AM3R 05/08/2014 at 08:35

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Oh yeah. It's such a sexy color for the SHO, if I ever were to get another SHO it would have to be the BRG one. I think they only made that color for one year.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 05/08/2014 at 08:38

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Yeah, I suppose I'll find out haha.

I'll definitely check out that site then, my car does have an ecoboost engine, so it would be worth it to at least look, thanks.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 05/08/2014 at 08:39

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Hmm, sounds like it could be interesting, I'll check them out then

nafsucof > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/08/2014 at 09:27

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so upon motor failure if the ecu is sent to ford they can tell if it's been flashed and returned back if they think you have done something. Thing is when you flash it back to stock you should complete a drive cycle so it looks like you didn't just reset the computer. I've done it several time going in for recall work etc. maintain a good relationship with your dealer and don't be a tweaker and they won't check that, they'll work with you. They don't check your ecu for oil changes etc and you'd need to go stock for emissions testing. Reputable tuners such as fswerks(I've used their tune on my SVT for 7 years and my st for over a year) should give you nothing to worry about. They just use a little more of what's left on the table which is plenty. Typically they don't improve the top end too much but improve the low to mid range power and drivability read:torque. Did you watch the drive episode where they tuned their fist?

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/08/2014 at 09:29

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For an SHO Livernois is $600 and Unleashed is $400. I personally, from what I read, like Livernois better. But both tuners have proven success and reliability. I've also heard great things about Cobb, but don't know a whole lot about them.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > nafsucof 05/08/2014 at 09:33

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Ah, alright.

I did catch it, but only the first few minutes because I wanted to see them put on that intercooler, but it was like 2 weeks before I bought my FiST (I saw it, decided I wanted it, and bought it all in the same day), but still thought it was cool as shit because they got it up to like what, 260 for torque?

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 05/08/2014 at 09:35

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Hmm, I'll just do some reading on the forums and see who likes what the best. Best part about having the performance model of a car is everyone is just like you, trying to get the most out of their cars.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/08/2014 at 09:36

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Yeah, it's fun and addicting, I can spend hours reading and researching this stuff, haha. I know waaaay too much about what all I can do to my car :P But that's why we are on Oppo and Jalopnik.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 05/08/2014 at 09:39

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Yeah, same here. I know way too much about cars I don't even own anymore or cars I don't plan on owning, but the info has come to help out people I know diagnosing problems with their cars. I just like knowing things about cars, if I don't know how something works I research it until I know exactly what is going on with it

nafsucof > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/08/2014 at 10:22

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yeah something like that, I say go for it!!

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > nafsucof 05/08/2014 at 10:23

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As soon as I've got my 944 back up and running in good condition I'm going to swap the exhaust, intake, and intercooler, I want to hit around 300 hp in the fiesta and I think I'll be happy

nafsucof > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/08/2014 at 10:37

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300 will not happen with those mods. The focu st cannot clear 300 with bolt ons. Larger turbo yes but other supporting bolt ons only get it to about 270-290. I would think 220-240 would be killer in the fist. I ave upgraded my intercooler and intake, with tune should be about 250-260 whp. But something around 330-340 wheel torque. Larger turbos are netting around 300-350 whp with similar torque. These ecoboost motors have tiny torque happy turbos. You'd need a larger turbo and a lot more fuel than your stock system will pump for those power numbers...

webmonkees > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/08/2014 at 11:09

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Get positive feedback from 944 owners who've actually used a particular chip. Ideally you find a whole ECU with chip mod so you have a spare.

Or old-school.. There should be a few places on the motor for adding temp pressure and other fun info with some VDO gauges..

a good going over of every system you can, properly tweaking the emissions (some cars run better with some of it in place) a few OEM mods as per forum members and you'll probably get a few HP just doing that without any chipping.

At least with a 944 you have both a specialty market, and a number of years to bring the sanity back to the prices.

Apparently the 85's are the only ones with a chip socket and prices vary. Not sure how they solve this, other than techs soldering in a chip.

Caveat Emptor:

Also the devices vary. This is outright fraud.

Mighty Car Mods got one, does nothing on the dyno, they have a tech run the traces, it's designed to look like it does something but just switches a LED color.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > nafsucof 05/08/2014 at 12:40

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Hmm, well, when I really think about it, 200 torque is already quite a lot, so I think I'll do the upgrades one by one, and see where how I like it, I don't really want to upgrade the turbo until the stock turbo dies out, speaking of, how long to these turbos last?

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > webmonkees 05/08/2014 at 12:43

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I'm in the middle of a clutch job right now on my 944, and everyone has always recommended a chip, did not know only the 85 had a chip socket, that is interesting. And I do love that there is a huge aftermarket for the 944's, but I always get disinterested with trying to mod it for higher numbers because it is not a turbo, would it even be worth sinking any money into? My original plan was to run it until the engine went, and then put an LS1 into it with a 951 transmission.

wiffleballtony > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/08/2014 at 13:26

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I got mine from BAMA Performance. They specialize in Mustangs but I imagine the process is the same for most canned tunes.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > wiffleballtony 05/08/2014 at 13:30

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Hmm, alrighty I appreciate it. So what did you notice once you got the tune?

wiffleballtony > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/08/2014 at 13:33

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I noticed quicker throttle response, faster gear changes and my car was smoking the tires in first and second if I stomped on it.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > wiffleballtony 05/08/2014 at 13:33

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That is pretty awesome, is it an automatic?

webmonkees > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/08/2014 at 13:52

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No clue on that, I'm only versed in wrecking VW engines. So I just read in the manual today "The oil pressure light is not a oil level indicator." It is to me..

nafsucof > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/08/2014 at 14:31

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?? It should last the life of the car? Fords turbos are plumbed as part of the cooling system so they stay at reasonable temps and use convection to move coolant through it after you've driven it and shut it down, so you don't need to worry about coming of the bearings, you still shouldn't be flooring all the way home and then turn it off after hammering it. That being said keep good oil like rotella in it and you'll have some longevity.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > nafsucof 05/08/2014 at 14:33

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Just remember reading somewhere, someone had said it would last around 100k miles or something like that.

This is the first car I've owned that has a turbo, so when you say keep oil in it, do I had to be doing anything with the turbo specifically?

nafsucof > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/08/2014 at 16:46

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nope just use really good oil. Rotella has detergents to help keep the engine clean, it's made for diesels but works great on all turbo motors.

wiffleballtony > Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom 05/08/2014 at 18:35

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Yes, regrettably it is an automatic.

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > wiffleballtony 05/09/2014 at 08:48

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I wouldn't say regrettably, autos do have their uses, like in your case with the tune, it helped out a ton of things, I wouldn't get faster shifts with a tune since mine is a 6 speed

Jeremy H formerly Kalakaboooom > nafsucof 05/09/2014 at 08:48

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Hmm, thats pretty interesting, on the FiST forums a lot of people I see are using the motorcraft 5w-20 initially then going to pennzoil or mobil 1